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Firefighters Watch House Burn To Ground!  
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4251 times:

http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local...burns-to-the-ground-104052668.html

I can't believe this. The guy calls the fire department, the fire department comes over, and, because he didn't pay them 75 dollars, the house burns down? A-La-Carte government at its finest...


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
233 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIBOAviator From Canada, joined Sep 2010, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4243 times:

WOW-- that's messed up. What are the fire fighters there for then? Then should have brought some popcorn and a case of beer--- Even if the fire fighters knew that the dues to the gov't for the fire fighting services hadn't been paid, you'd think they have the decency to put out the fire and say "d' hell with the fee, we're gonnna put your fire out and worry about the fee later"

I'd sue the fire department and take their ass*s to court in a heartbeat!!



Keep Calm and Go Around!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7215 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Quoting IBOAviator (Reply 1):
WOW-- that's messed up. What are the fire fighters there for then?

The fire spread to a neighbor who did pay the fee.

Quoting IBOAviator (Reply 1):
I'd sue the fire department and take their ass*s to court in a heartbeat!!

Not sure if there is a case, there is a policy the residents did not follow it.

Its a terrible situation and one I do NOT agree with. However if thats the law then thats the law. The person knew he did not pay the fee, that is seen in the video. He thought he could get away without paying the fee. He guessed wrong. Is a fee like that right, no of course not. The resident had two options pay the fee or move.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Thread starter):
A-La-Carte government at its finest...


It begs the question, why did they go out in the first place? But then I see that the fire spread to a neighbouring property where the owner had paid.

Let me guess: the guy doesn't have house insurance either. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who appear on TV having lost everything, all because they had not installed a fire detector and didn't have insurance. These people then complain that the Government doesn't help them.   


User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4192 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
Quoting IBOAviator (Reply 1):
I'd sue the fire department and take their ass*s to court in a heartbeat!!

Not sure if there is a case, there is a policy the residents did not follow it.

It seems pretty clear-cut to me: These were City of Fulton firefighters whose job it is to put out fires within the city limits of Fulton, from whom taxes are collected to pay their salaries and buy/maintain their equipment. The City of Fulton firefighters have offered to extend their services to residents of Obion County not within the city limits of Fulton for a per-household annual fee to be paid in advance. Mr. Cranick chose not to pay the fire protection fee in advance, and thus had not contracted the services of the City of Fulton firefighters in the event of a fire. I wonder if Mr. Cranick would try have his home insured against tornado damage at the very moment it was being lifted off it's foundation by a tornado?



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User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2897 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4182 times:

Quoting Quokka (Reply 3):
It begs the question, why did they go out in the first place?

I just cant believe this !

And all for $75 .00. How pathetic.

What is going to be the cost to the state now, in social services to this guy re housing /temp accommodation etc. I bet its going to be far more than the $75.

A complete false economy.

What a crazy place!



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4181 times:

It´s like in the old days (at least in early 19th century Germany), where firefighters were employees of fire insurances and would only help with houses, where the owner had paid the insurance (there would be a metal placard beside the door to show that the house owner was a member of the insurance).
Or the nasty days during the early 19th century in e.g. NYC (as depicted in "Gangs of New York"), where the firefighters would demand a bribe before going into action and various gang connected fire units would fight it out as who would get access to the fire (and the money).

In other countries (e.g. France) the fire service started as part of the military (AFAIK, the Paris firefigthers are still soldiers "Sappeurs pompiers").

Jan


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5681 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4174 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
Not sure if there is a case, there is a policy the residents did not follow it.

Its a terrible situation and one I do NOT agree with. However if thats the law then thats the law. The person knew he did not pay the fee, that is seen in the video. He thought he could get away without paying the fee. He guessed wrong. Is a fee like that right, no of course not. The resident had two options pay the fee or move.

There is another option, and the city, county, and fire department should have had it available:

A full priced fee for putting out a fire.

It could be something like a "fee" of $7,500.00 to put out a fire, and if you request teh service you are obligated to pay for it. So residents in the area would have to options, 1.) Insurance-pay $75/yr for fire service or 2.) Fee for Service-if you request fire service and did not pay the annual fee the price is $7,500. Sure there may be some issues but at worst, in most cases, a lien could be placed on the property if needed.

A comparative example is if you do not have insurance the hospital does not turn you away, you are simply charged the full rates and expected to pay them.

So you can buy insurance or pull the full price.

Tugg

[Edited 2010-10-04 23:37:43]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2897 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 7):
There is a third option, and the city, county, and fire department should have had it available:

A full priced fee for putting out a fire.

It could be something like a "fee" of $7,500.00 to put out a fire, and if you request teh service you are obligated to pay for it. So residents in the area would have to options, 1.) Insurance-pay $75/yr for fire service or 2.) Fee for Service-if you request fire service and did not pay the annual fee the price is $7,500. Sure there may be some issues but at worst, in most cases, a lien could be placed on the property if needed.

A comparative example is if you do not have insurance the hospital does not turn you away, you are simply charged the full rates and expected to pay them.

So you can buy insurance or pull the full price.

Tugg

That's ridiculous, people cant afford health insurance in the US let alone pay $7,5oo if there house burns down.


What are the services, state governments in the US actually do ?

Shouldn't fire fighting be available to all citizens regardless of the cost, like police and ambulance ?

The entire thing is just so stupid, I cant believe its America were talking about here, and not some 3 rd world country. it really is crazy.

I mean, what do you guys pay taxes for.
 

[Edited 2010-10-04 23:43:01]


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User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

This home owner needs to look no further than himself to blame, $75./yr is pretty cheap to pay for fire protection.
It sounds as if by his house not being in the city limits, he did not have to pay city taxes? But he could have opted for fire coverage, but refused. How is it the City of South Fulton's fault, when he does not live in their city?

These type of policies exist in more places than you think. In counties where they cannot afford to pay a full time FD, they have volunteer FDs, but some do not even have money for that. I know several times Firemen could see a house burning from their station, but because it was not in the city limits, they could not respond and the VFD had to come put it out, it is called politics! Do these things need to change? yes!

[Edited 2010-10-04 23:54:44]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Maybe there where just a few people in this county paying for the fire services (the neighbour being an exception), so that the firefighters had order to make a statement (possibly after helping several time for free). I´ll bet that next year the people in this county WILL be paying for the fire service.
I wonder why they don´t have local voluntary firefighters. Over here every village has it´s own small unit of voluntary firefighters. Being a member is actually part of German village culture, just like being a member of the local football club or the "Schützenverein" (gun club, which originally started centuries ago as a citizen´s militia against attcks by marauding invading soldiers). The units might not be big (depending on the size of the village).
E.g. the village I live in of 800 inhabitants has one Mercedes Sprinter van converted as a pump truck (with a portable water pump in the back) and space for 6 firefighters and their equipment and a water trailer, which, if necessary, will be hooked on a farm tractor and towed to the place of need. Additional equipment stored in the firehouse will be l,oaded on farm trucks if necessary. If there is a fire or other emergency, a siren will sound (which is controlled from the dispatcher´s office in the county capital, where all emergency calls come in) and you´ll see lots of men in the village dropping whatever they are doing and to run (or bicycle or come by tractor or car) to the firehouse, which is in ground floor of the village´s community hall. The firefighters will put on their protective gear and the first 5 firefigthers under an NCO will jump on the fire engine and will respond directly. The remaining firefigthers will follow with privately owned cars, motorbikes or tractors.
The distances are not big, so that they´ll always be at the emergency site within minutes.
If they discover that they need more manpower or equipment, the dispatcher can call the neighbouring villages to help.

Jan


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5681 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4143 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
That's ridiculous, people cant afford health insurance in the US let alone pay $7,5oo if there house burns down.

No, its not, its a choice a consumer can make when they live in an area that does not have the services paid for by their taxes. Normally an area's property taxes pay for this type of service but when you live in unincorporated areas that do not collect property taxes for such services then it is up to the cities in the area if they want to extend their services and how.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
What are the services, state governments in the US actually do ?

It depends on the area, region, or state.


Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Shouldn't fire fighting be available to all citizens regardless of the cost, like police and ambulance ?

Ambulance service is not free in all areas. An ambulance will transport you to the hospital when needed but either you or your insurance provider will get he bill.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
I mean, what do you guys pay taxes for.

For different areas.... people pay taxes for different things. Simple example: In some states you have toll roads and others you have "free"ways that taxes pay for and support.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
I mean, what do you guys pay taxes for.

That's the problem - he wasn't paying taxes for it, as he didn't live within the boundaries of the city. That's why the fee is there.

But the idea that he couldn't have the firefighters put the fire out and then pay full cost plus some extra is ridiculous.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2595 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Shouldn't fire fighting be available to all citizens regardless of the cost, like police and ambulance ?

The entire thing is just so stupid, I cant believe its America were talking about here, and not some 3 rd world country. it really is crazy.

I mean, what do you guys pay taxes for.

*gasp* why that would be....SOCIALISM!

(lest you get the wrong idea, i have no doubt that the hard-asses on this thread would be screaming bloody murder and be the first in line at the lawyers' offices had it happened to them....)


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2897 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4130 times:

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 9):
How is it the City of South Fultons fault, when he does not live in their city?

So why did they come then if the house is out of city limits, I don't get it.
Surely when the call comes in the operator has some idea of where the house is, its called an address ...if it out out the limit then why go, I know maybe just to watch   

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
No, its not, its a choice a consumer can make when they live in an area that does not have the services paid for by their taxes. Normally an area's property taxes pay for this type of service but when you live in unincorporated areas that do not collect property taxes for such services then it is up to the cities in the area if they want to extend their services and how.

Sorry, but what a convoluted system. I mean, you see a house on fire, you call the fire brigade for assistance ASAP. You dont run up to the guy, who's house it is, and say, hey. have you paid your taxes, cause if you haven't, I'm just going to pull up my deck chair and watch your house burn down.. Brilliant !

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Ambulance service is not free in all areas. An ambulance will transport you to the hospital when needed but either you or your insurance provider will get he bill.


So you have a car accident and cause you aren't from that area they leave you to die on the side of the road. even more crazy !

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
That's the problem - he wasn't paying taxes for it, as he didn't live within the boundaries of the city. That's why the fee is there.

I get that part, sort of.

1) if its not in the city limits then why did they attend
2)who then does govern the area where the house is, someone must cover this ?



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

The firefighters responded to make sure nobody was hurt or trapped inside. Medical/rescue services are different than fire services. Once established that everyone was safe, they let it burn as they were not legally bound to put out the fire.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):

2)who then does govern the area where the house is, someone must cover this ?

The house was in an unincorporated part of Obion County. The county has chosen not to provide for fire services for residents, and thus the residents don't get taxed for them. A city neighboring the unincorporated part of the county offered to contract individually with the residents (as opposed to the county itself) for a fee (which normally would've been covered with a tax, had the county decided to do so).

Since this particular homeowner chose not to pay the fee (tax), he did not receive fire services.

It's like saying someone should cover you in a car accident, even if you didn't have insurance before hand.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3070 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Ambulance service is not free in all areas. An ambulance will transport you to the hospital when needed but either you or your insurance provider will get he bill.


So you have a car accident and cause you aren't from that area they leave you to die on the side of the road. even more crazy !

No, because since you had the accident on a public road you'd be picked up by the ambulance service of whatever municipality is primarily responsible for the road: local city, county, or in the case of state roads and interstate highways, whichever municipality or hospital is closest to the scene of the accident. There are also privately-owned ambulance companies that contract to cover areas not covered by local municipalities.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
That's the problem - he wasn't paying taxes for it, as he didn't live within the boundaries of the city. That's why the fee is there.

I get that part, sort of.

1) if its not in the city limits then why did they attend
2)who then does govern the area where the house is, someone must cover this ?

1. They attended because the house next door was covered, and when the fire spread to that property they put it out.
2. Unincorporated (not within the city limits of any city) areas of a county are governed by the county and, of course, the state, but counties and states rarely if ever have fully funded fire departments of their own. Sometimes people in unincorporated areas will form their own volunteer fire departments, but not always, and especially not if a local city offers to extend it's fire coverage for a reasonable fee.

Quoting johnboy (Reply 13):
i have no doubt that the hard-asses on this thread would be screaming bloody murder and be the first in line at the lawyers' offices had it happened to them.

No, this particular "hard-ass" would have paid his $75 every year just in case such a tragic event happened and he needed to call on the services of the nearest fire department.



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):

$75/yr comes to $6.25/month (Six Dollars and 25 cent a month)

1. The resident chose to live in a house outside the city limits, and not pay city taxes which cover frie protection.
2. The resident chose to live in a county that did not provide fire services, and did not have to pay taxes.
3. The neighboring city offered fire protection to residences in the county for $6.25/month and he chose not to get the coverage.

So because of the choices HE made, and the protection HE refused, now the city HE does not lIve in or pay taxes to, is wrong, because they did not come bail him out when HIS decision to not have fire protection for his home, went up in flames???

At what point do we accept responsibility for our actions or lack of actions, rather than blame someone else. Also, for all we know, by the time the FD got there, his house may have already been a total loss, and at that point, you don't try to put it out, just keep it from spreading to the neighboring houses. Another point, many neighbor hoods in the county, do not have fire hydrants, which means th FD would have had to bring their own water, which does not last very long!


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14094 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
But the idea that he couldn't have the firefighters put the fire out and then pay full cost plus some extra is ridiculous.

I think they helped several times in the past and didn´t get paid and now they wanted to make an example. This guy was just unlucky to be the one.
I´ll bet that after this incident the people int this county WILL pay up.

Jan


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4080 times:

Quoting Franklin Delano Roosevelt:
What do I do in such a crisis?" the president asked at a press conference. "I don't say... 'Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it' …I don't want $15 — I want my garden hose back after the fire is over.

Sorry, but FDR echoes my thoughts exactly.



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20012 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Thread starter):
A-La-Carte government at its finest...

Exactly. He doesn't pay taxes in the city. Thus, if he wants fire protection, he has to buy it. Hope he learned his lesson. And I hope everyone else in this unincorporated region did, too.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

You know, there may also be a liability issue here.

What if a firefighter were hurt fighting this fire? Would the insurance company balk at paying up since the fire department had no obligation to fight the fire? Just thinking out loud.

And, for the record, as a former command officer on a small suburban fire department, I would have ordered an attack on this fire, assuming the conditions warranted it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
You know, there may also be a liability issue here.

What if a firefighter were hurt fighting this fire? Would the insurance company balk at paying up since the fire department had no obligation to fight the fire? Just thinking out loud.

I thought of bringing this up too, as this is why our city FD could not respond in the county, unless requested by the VFD, but, I would assume that if they are able to charge for fire protection services, then they are also covered in case of injury, but as you know, this can vary from state to state?


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2897 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
Since this particular homeowner chose not to pay the fee (tax), he did not receive fire services.
Quoting TSS (Reply 16):
2. Unincorporated (not within the city limits of any city) areas of a county are governed by the county and, of course, the state, but counties and states rarely if ever have fully funded fire departments of their own. Sometimes people in unincorporated areas will form their own volunteer fire departments, but not always, and especially not if a local city offers to extend it's fire coverage for a reasonable fee.
Quoting Mudboy (Reply 17):
So because of the choices HE made, and the protection HE refused, now the city HE does not lIve in or pay taxes to, is wrong, because they did not come bail him out when HIS decision to not have fire protection for his home, went up in flames???

Guys, excuse me for asking, but aren't these basic government services ?
Services that benefit the whole of society
services that everybody has contributed to thoughtout there working lives?

Why are they not (fire services) extended to all, even after working life when a person is perhaps on a small retirement pension of limited means.

In Australia these services are paid for out of general revenue, collected from federal taxes and distributed to the various states. Another words, they are considered basic human services, offered to everyone in society, taxes or not. And IMHO that;s the way it should be.

So whats going on in the US then, surely you to consider this to be a basic fundamental Government service, available. free to one and all ?

I know that America is a serviced centered society, but isn't this taking things a little to far.
I mean, to go to the fire and then stand by and watch someones house burn down, and not do a thing to help is absolutely cold hearted and callous. I'm sorry but I just cant understand it

Answer me this then,

If your neighbors house was on fire, and you knew that she hadn't paid her taxes, would you go help her put it out with the garden house or would you stand by and watch the thing burn down?

[Edited 2010-10-05 02:24:34]


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User currently offlineMudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1167 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
If your neighbors house was on fire, and you new that she hadn't paid her taxes, would you go help her put it out with the garden house or would you stand by and watch the thing burn down?

I would do whatever I could to help my neighbor, as I would hope most people would. I am sure that the responding FF had mixed feelings, but I have seen this happen before and know what came of it, and if policy says you cannot intervene, than you do not, unless you want to lose your job. Now keep in mind if someone where trapped inside, they would not just stand there and do nothing.

We also need to understand that this is a news article, and all the facts may not have been told?


25 MD11Engineer : In Germany fire services are a communal matter, paid for by communal taxes (and subsidies from the state and federal governments, since the units als
26 AirTran737 : That'll teach the rednecks not to fork out 75 bucks. Serves them right.
27 Superfly : These firefighters are a disgrace to other firefighters. Apparently they don't know right from wrong. The city could have easily found a way to collec
28 fr8mech : Yes and no. Fire service is a public good. But, remember, the US does not have a centralized government for these kind of things. The fire service is
29 Superfly : Maybe but they're the one's standing there in uniform with the appropriate materials to do their job and they neglected to do their job. Getting the
30 LTBEWR : What if someone was trapped in the house? Would the firefighters not go in to save someone? Foruntally, I live in the State of New Jersey where all ar
31 TheCommodore : Well then so be it. I would rather lose my job than abide by such a stupid rule. To stand by and watch a house burn down and not do anything about it
32 signol : Fair enough that the system requires users pay for the services they want, but surely there's a means to "pay as you use" as well? As someone said, $7
33 fr8mech : What I'm getting at is that on the fireground, it really needs to be all or nothing. If one half of the crew decides to disobey the order and launch
34 MasterBean : If there was somebody trapped inside the house what would happen, just a thought.
35 casinterest : My biggest problem with it, is that assuming the guy has insurance, everyone's fees just went up by X to cover it. so there fore the firefighters's pr
36 Quokka : If it was safe to get the person out the firefighters would do that. Saving life is not the same as saving uninsured property. It would all depend on
37 N867DA : Things like this shouldn't happen in a developed country. I am aware it ultimately the homeowner's fault but standing by with firefighting equipment r
38 Post contains images BMI727 : I would think that paying the fire department fee would be required to get fire insurance. You pay taxes to your municipality to provide fire service
39 ALTF4 : Life sucks. Get used to it. Just think if the firefighters got there, started fighting the fire, and two got killed inside while the house collapsed.
40 RussianJet : Only in America. Never mind the public good, pay up or your house burns down. I suppose we should be grateful nobody was left inside to burn to death.
41 tugger : No, not only in America, also in the country you live in and the country you have chosen as your flag. This kind of stuff happens everywhere but in K
42 DocLightning : Yes, but where the man lives there is no government that provides a fire department because there are not enough people to fund one. Thus, people in
43 NIKV69 : Though I find myself agreeing with the mad doctor lately and agree this man should have paid I feel once the FD is there they should have acted. That
44 Post contains images KiwiRob : Two reasons why I'm hapy to come from and live in countries where this kind of stupidity can't and won't happen. What next the police, fire and ambul
45 TSS : It should be noted that, according to the video, the fire started in two trash barrels and took two hours to spread to the house. While burning trash
46 iairallie : A lot of knee jerk reactions from people I suspect did not actually read the article. As some have already pointed out (it bears repeating as it doesn
47 Post contains links TSS : Further news on the story, and answers to some questions: http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local...ollowing-house-fire-104113489.html
48 tugger : Of course I can, while not as extreme as this fire protection situation, New Zealand does not provide free dental services to the population. Should
49 prebennorholm : I'm glad that had it happened here, then the firemen would have gone to prison. Every man, if he is in a position to avoid or reduce an evolving disas
50 Mir : Sue them for failing to provide a service that the homeowner was willing to pay for. People comparing this to insurance (including the fire chief) ar
51 Starbuk7 : So, the fire department takes his $75 bucks and puts his house out. Then what makes you think him or any one else in OBION will pay the $75 bucks nex
52 signol : No, what Mir is saying that the homeowner is willing to pay the full cost of the fire brigade - maybe several thousand dollars, not the $75 for the i
53 Mir : Where exactly did the homeowner not show personal responsibility? It's the fire department who was lacking in that category. -Mir
54 Starbuk7 : Where Exactly!!?! When he did NOT pay the $75 bucks in the first place. If you have the option to cover your house for something that may or may not
55 DiamondFlyer : By simply not paying the $75 fee. How is it responsible to say "No thanks", but then be upset when you need that service you declined for a grand tot
56 iairallie : DING! They didn't make advance arrangements to protect their assets when inexpensive resources were readily available. Fire dept was not lacking in r
57 TSS : 1. By not paying the $75 annual fee required for fire department services from the Fulton fire department when his home is not within Fulton city lim
58 canoecarrier : If you let your car insurance lapse then get in an accident will the insurance company cover you if you pay the difference you owe? What about everyo
59 Post contains images tugger : No, of course not, you pay the full price to get your car repaired. And that should have been an option for the homeowner in this situation. Charge a
60 iairallie : He does he can pay full price to have his home repaired. If he has insurance I'm guessing they will fight tooth and nail over payment because the guy
61 tugger : In this example the two are not equitable. The fire department was available for use and could have provided the service for which it is created. For
62 iairallie : Lets take your analogy and say that the tow company let people know up front that only those who subscribe to their service have use of it.
63 DocLightning : Not so much. An ER is required to stabilize a patient regardless of ability to pay. I am not required to TREAT. If you walk into my office holding yo
64 BMI727 : Fine with me. The guy's an looks like an idiot because he took a gamble to save what amounts to beer money and lost. Bad move, now quit whining.
65 iairallie : It's fine with me I'd love to only pay for the services I think I will use. I think Tuggers penalty payment option to use the service if you didn't p
66 canoecarrier : If this was the situation no one would purchase the service up front, everyone would wait and pay in the event their house catches fire. How would th
67 Post contains images TheCommodore : Simple really, because America is a developed nation, NOT some third world country !! What a ridiculous thing, taxes are meant to be spread for the b
68 BMI727 : Yes. The benefit of the citizens who pay the taxes. This guy did not fall into that category. But I bet some of your taxes go to fund the fire depart
69 TheCommodore : Wrong, they are there for the benefit for the entire community to use, NOT just for those that can pay tax. BIG difference. Yes, just like some of my
70 BMI727 : A community which this guy was not a part of. The fire department is funded completely by the city. Why should someone who does not pay city taxes, a
71 vio : That's disgusting! No offence here, but most Americans don't want to be a "socialist country"... Well "socialism" includes basic services, such as fir
72 BMI727 : All of that has to be paid for. We pay for health insurance, or just doctor's bills. And our tax money goes to pay for the police and fire service in
73 DiamondFlyer : Yes, I think its the case in this situation. He was given the opportunity to have the service provided and he declined it. Its not like he wasn't giv
74 aloges : OK, so what about someone who lives within the coverage area of that fire department, but doesn't pay any income taxes because he earns too little to
75 KiwiRob : I would expect the closest rural fire department would attend the call, as would all your neighbours and you would probably have a decent fire hose o
76 iairallie : Why is that I keep getting tagged as the quoter when it isn't me? Awesome so does that mean I can have your tax money from OZ to pay for my firedepar
77 Mir : Yeah, he gambled on it. And then when he lost he owned up to it and offered to pay for the full cost (which we can assume is significantly more than
78 fr8mech : If the county chooses to field a fire department, it will need to fund one. The county's leaders or residents have to make that decision. They can le
79 DocLightning : And they have no guarantee he's going to pay or that he has the money.
80 PPVRA : The guy himself said he expected the service without paying for it. Why aren't the usual suspects denouncing him for basically being a tax cheat? This
81 Mir : There are ways around that. -Mir
82 canoecarrier : The residents aren't paying any taxes to the town. The operation of a fire department is not free. If fire hoses, staff and fire trucks are free then
83 Mir : You just cited an example where most people pay up front. -Mir
84 Post contains images ScarletHarlot : The guy is an idiot for not paying the $75 and getting fire department response eligibility. BUT the fire department should also allow for people to p
85 canoecarrier : And I'd argue 20% is still a significant number. There's 4.4 million registered drivers in WA. 20% of that is 880,000 people. Who foots the bill when
86 Aaron747 : Staffing offices where the employees largely push paper while accruing large pensions. To pool the funds necessary to pay huge pensions that satisfy
87 Zentraedi : The thing is, how do you calculate that? You can't just take the marginal costs for that little outing. The fire department needs to be on standby an
88 ScarletHarlot : You are right. There would have to be some kind of formula used, perhaps based on studies of many fires, that estimated the cost based on something l
89 dxing : I wonder if he did indeed have a fire insurance policy if they will consider it null and void since he hadn't paid. I guess it would all depend on how
90 TheCommodore : I'm well aware of that. Exactly, Taxes are divided between the various states from the federal Government, they then filter down to the different loc
91 prebennorholm : Yup, and the guy should pay for that, maybe a $175 or $275 fine. This has absolutely nothing with socialism to do, but has everything to do with comm
92 Post contains images TheCommodore : Yeah. likewise in Australia and NZ. All this BS about tax being paid or not paid. Taxes don't come into it here, Thank God ! So your saying some fire
93 BMI727 : First, there is a difference between not paying taxes because one does not reside in the area being taxed and having tax deductions. Secondly, that s
94 PPVRA : That's illogical. A man's actions do not reflect on another man's reputation. Again you are wrong. It costs FAR MORE to have put the fire out, becaus
95 cytz_pilot : Seems to me that this reveals a great flaw in this whole arrangement - the guy could have told a bald-faced lie, that there was someone trapped. With
96 Post contains images TheCommodore : Perfectly logical to me. Goes to point out the vast differences if standards of living between the US and various other nations. WTF Moral hazard, wh
97 canoecarrier : I don't know that the system failed at all. If you don't pay your electric bill your power gets shut off, don't pay your water bill you don't get wat
98 Mir : In other words, create a budget. It can definitely be done. -Mir
99 PPVRA : It is not. Nothing to do with "standards of living" either. Google is your friend. No, that's not what I told you. Well they do know how to google so
100 BMI727 : Well above this guy's probably.
101 iairallie : You sound pretty cocky and judgemental about the system that exists in some rural unincorporated areas of the US. Soooo I did a little research to se
102 Mudboy : Dude where did you hear this? Now you are talking my line of work and we fly regardless, unless the weather is bad. We never land on an interstate at
103 TheCommodore : Someone is now without a house and you don't know that the system failed at all ? If your going to bring other examples into the discussion, then ple
104 BMI727 : Except that it isn't regardless of tax. It's because of the tax. Just because it isn't a separate line item on your tax bill doesn't mean you aren't
105 TheCommodore : Agreed, As i have said in my many previous posts, at the end of the day it all comes from tax. Its just not a separate tax here in Australia specific
106 Superfly : He may be an idiot but you don't stand there and watch his house burn down. They could have collected the $75 tax later. I've read several articles a
107 Pyrex : And guess what? He did not pay his taxes for it. As someone who have worked closely with volunteer fire departments, I can tell you that rarely if ev
108 Mudboy : And there are some rural areas in the US, that cannot support this. If I live in an unincorporated area, I can expect, that it will take longer for a
109 canoecarrier : I have renters insurance. If I don't pay for that and my home gets broken into I'm SOL. Same for homeowners insurance. I had my home broken into a ye
110 okie : I think some of you are playing this incorrectly. First of all if the guy owned the house and did not have a mortgage then he may or may not have insu
111 canoecarrier : Who's system? The owners system? He admitted that he was supposed to pay for fire protection coverage and didn't. I believe his own quote was along t
112 Post contains links fr8mech : Why? He made the legal decision not to protect himself with a $75 fee. Not against the law. Yes, in fact it seems ludicrious to many inside the US. T
113 usflyer msp : This thread is just turning into America-bashing by some posters that just don't get our way of life. As this incident shows, we don't believe in a na
114 TheCommodore : Listen, I live in Australia, Population approx 22 million. land mass bigger than Europe and slightlt smaller than the US, and we manage to offer thes
115 canoecarrier : To think that this family won't be taken care of by someone or some organization wouldn't be fair. They will. Where does the entitlement stop? Are yo
116 Post contains images canoecarrier :
117 Quokka : That may be true of cities and towns in some states. But in large parts of WA there is no State organised fire brigade to dispatch despite the recent
118 TheCommodore : No, the US tax system No, Some of us think that this is a VERY basic government service, and should be available to one and all. You said it was a pr
119 Superfly : Not sure how this relates to the thread but what's the average IQ of an Australian? An Australian with a high IQ would understand that the United Sta
120 Post contains images TheCommodore : Really ? So you think that a fire crew standing by, watching a house burn, and doing zip about it is a normal thing. What about the cost to the servi
121 canoecarrier : I think you have no idea how our system of public services works with that comment. We just don't tax everyone to provide every public service known
122 Post contains images TheCommodore : Please pull the other one, a fire service could hardly be described as being, "every service known to man" You bet there is and a big one. As I said
123 iairallie : The fact is you are quite wrong. You should do your research. Actually in many parts of Australia fire services are paid for out of a levy on insuran
124 Post contains links SHUPirate1 : Ummm...do we need to educate you about the Massive Resistance? http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...vby=CASE&court=US&vol=377&page=218
125 BMI727 : It's not a normal thing because the vast majority of people are smarter than this particular homeowner. I don't think that personal responsibility is
126 Mudboy : I don't give a damn about people that refuse to help themselves, and then want to blame everyone but themselves, when all goes wrong. And exactly how
127 iairallie : Sure they do. If that is the case why did you mention that many outback residents have their own hose/fire fighting equipment and rely on neighbors t
128 usflyer msp : It is not normal but in this instance it was correct. Otherwise, what is the incentive to pay the $75? As to the repairs, they will only be made if h
129 Mir : The guy was willing to pay the full cost to have the fire put out. No other people would have to pay. Why is that so hard to understand? -Mir
130 Post contains images TheCommodore : No I'm not. Show me your source if your so sure. Your quite correct. What you haven't bother to say is (you probably left it out on purpose) if say y
131 DocLightning : MOST Americans also have "free" fire service. However, not all parts of the country do, especially areas with low population densities or areas witho
132 Quokka : Yes it was the case here in WA as well that even if you didn't have insurance, the fire brigade still would put out the fire. The law was changed so
133 Superfly : An Australian with a high IQ would know that the Non-Aviation forums of Airliners.net is hardly a scientific example of how a vast majority of Americ
134 Post contains images fr8mech : This is normally provided through the Red Cross or religious organizations. Some private charities may also deal in this area. But, not the US govern
135 Post contains images Mudboy :
136 Post contains images TheCommodore : Superfly, who ever said that it was ? Don't tell me, of all people your putting word's into my mouth, not you, surely. Have you ever tried out for co
137 Post contains images Superfly : You did in post #120 when you said; "Apparently not though as most of the above post show, very clearly" Not trying to be funny. Just not sure how th
138 Post contains images TheCommodore : And I stick by what I said, go read how many agree. Well, now you got my respect again, LOL
139 Post contains images Superfly : I already have and the defenders of these cowards are not an accurate reprentative sample of the attitude of Americans on this topic. Thank you!
140 RussianJet : No. Fire in the UK? The fire service come, regardless of who, where or what. You could be a squatter who has never paid any tax in ten years - the em
141 LTBEWR : In some places in the USA, one pays a separate tax, not a fee, on their property for fire services in unincorporated areas. That is probably what shou
142 offloaded : The fire department had to be damn sure that this guy hadn't paid. Imagine if the guy had finally decided it was a good idea and paid up, but only a c
143 PPVRA : You don't know what "standards of living" means. WTF Re-read what I wrote. This is stupid. Based on what happened in that county, this is EXACTLY WHA
144 usflyer msp : At least in the USA, there is a big difference between the state providing benefits and a charity providing relief. Most people have a problem with t
145 RussianJet : There is no need to insult people just because they may believe in a wider sense of social responsibility. To label all countries with slighly more s
146 fr8mech : Didn't say there wasn't a cost. But, the cost is more significant if we allow folks to run rough-shod over the established rules. As Doc pointed out:
147 offloaded : With respect, governments at various levels (municipal/city/state/federal) are responsible to varying degrees. We saw the whole "health care" debate,
148 MD11Engineer : I think this guy was a chancer, who just gambled on the low probability of never having a fire in his house. We don´t know the full story, but I ass
149 dxing : That American thought so. He gambled and lost. Happens all the time here.
150 RussianJet : Had I meant that, I would have said that.
151 canoecarrier : Couldn't agree more. What others don't recognize is that we're fundamentally different as a country in many ways from where they live. It's not that
152 fr8mech : But, where does government involvement end and personal responsibility begin? This man knew that he lived in an area that had no organic fire protect
153 BMI727 : One where people take care of their own affairs as they see fit. People make decisions and live with the consequences, good or bad.
154 Post contains images TheCommodore : Really ! I think I have a better idea of that than you, judging by what you expect out of life. Oh I have, and that is what you implied. State, Chari
155 BMI727 : Not me. The guy's an idiot and it's his own fault. This is bad luck, or life throwing him a curveball. This one is self inflicted wound due to sheer
156 Post contains images usflyer msp : TheCommodore, I am done. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again no matter what any one says or how we respond. We are obviously n
157 TheCommodore : So your not part of American society ? Do you divorce yourself completely away from the rest of society? Where exactly do you live ?
158 BMI727 : I am, but this guy shouldn't get a nickel from the government. Last time I checked, Uncle Sam doesn't do fire insurance. It would be nice as long as
159 canoecarrier : Then you made a stupid decision, just like this guy did. His decision wasn't fatal. I don't get your point. At what point does someone take personal
160 DiamondFlyer : BS. It's all personal responsibility. The man gambled with $75 and lost, end of story. Why you feel it necessary to say from halfway around the world
161 iairallie : Not unlike the US. If you live within the TERRITORY COVERED BY THE AGENCIES REGULAR SERVICE. It just isn't sinking in is. It is a strange scenario bu
162 canoecarrier : This whole discussion reminded me of an interview a Denver TV station had with a guy who lived in the area burned by the Boulder fire last month. He
163 fr8mech : No, a reasonable person would realize that since he didn't enter a contract with the fire department, they had no obligation to fight his fire. I don
164 Post contains images TheCommodore : Why Go read the entire post properly. I didn't start the post !! Your fellow American did, so go nag to him and all the "others" here, who agree with
165 BMI727 : I think I want Canadian healthcare. Never mind that I don't live in Canada, I'm not Canadian, and I've never paid a dime of Canadian taxes, that's wh
166 Post contains images fr8mech : You forgot the part where 'the tax or fee has been paid'. On a sad note: no one ever gave me a beer for saving their house . But the firehouse would
167 Post contains images TheCommodore : That goes without saying. They, as I have said in earlier post's (read below) are paid for out out tax revenue. I suppose your not allowed to drink o
168 prebennorholm : I think that we can all agree that the guy not paying his $75 fire bill is an idiot. But that's not the problem at all. The problem is that it can be
169 canoecarrier : In general that's correct, however I do work all over the US. The rules that apply vary greatly from location to location. The process may be very cu
170 BMI727 : Because not doing so would hurt someone else. One idiot letting his house burn isn't causing anyone a problem, so he should be allowed to do it if he
171 Mudboy : It is obvious -our Australian friend is never going to get it, no matter how many different ways this is explained to him. This seems to be another "b
172 cpd : I just think there is something fundamentally wrong with this kind of system. So what would happen if the fire services of one area were sent to figh
173 iairallie : Commodore you "forgot" to answer the questions I directly asked you and insist on operating on the same false premises. You keep ignoring the residenc
174 iairallie : Many have reciprocal agreements so that you don't have a case of "OH I thought that was in your boundaries and you thought it was in ours Oopsie!"
175 Quokka : I absolutely agree that not paying a $75.00 fee for fire protection when you can is idiotic. The guy has only himself to blame for the losses he suffe
176 TSS : Not here in the US. As an example, my aunt and uncle live several miles outside the city limits of the nearest town in an unincorporated area of thei
177 Post contains images TheCommodore : Wow, you got in one Mudboy Oh and BTW, I'm not the only one. But do leave out that small fact. Seem's like you and I, plus a hand full of other xxxxx
178 BMI727 : You say that like it's a bad thing. For most people that's the case. They are part of the society in a given city, and therefore get to pay for and u
179 Superfly : I'd rather the fire fighters save the man's house and break his kneecaps instead like they did in the old days.
180 iairallie : Then why do you keep trying to generalize it. It is one case one area but OHHHHH there WHOLE US of A is nuts and does it the way this area does accor
181 TheCommodore : Because in this case its come IMHO, at the expense of a community, and I don't think that's a good outcome. Understand all that. Because its a fair a
182 BMI727 : Same here, should one wish to acquire it. There is absolutely nothing stopping any American from getting fire protection as good as the utopian Austr
183 Post contains links cpd : What may I ask is utopian about it? It's the expected and normal thing here. It's a public service which you get, like it or not, just like Police fo
184 fr8mech : Fire departments will typically have agreements with neighboring departments. These agreements usually take 2 forms: Automatic Aid. If a fire is repo
185 Post contains images Quokka : There is nothing Utopian about it and it is far from perfect. Like all systems it has its detractors. But the basic philosophy is different. Fire is
186 Post contains images TheCommodore : And I'm saying you should not need to "aquire it", like an add on extra for your home computer, it should just be there and available to you or anyon
187 fr8mech : Not saying that it can't, though typically, at least where I've lived and played, the fire service is supported by property taxes. But, once again, t
188 Post contains images Quokka : Commodore, have you ever heard the expression, "You're flogging a dead horse?" Some people will agree, some won't. That's life. I'm off for a coffee.
189 fr8mech : And, that's pretty much how we feel. We just do things differently here. By the way...here's the unofficial Fire Service motto in The States (it may
190 Post contains images TheCommodore : Gee, your not wrong there! And off for a Valium !
191 Post contains links Mudboy : Here ya go Admiral http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/06...ers-let-home-burn/?test=latestnews SOUTH FULTON, Tenn. (AP) — A Tennessee woman said Wedne
192 BMI727 : Only if it spreads, at which point the others call the fire department and protects their property, just like what happened in this case. Absolutely.
193 Post contains images iairallie : A basic lesson about how FD's and government in the US function and why we have chosen this system... Fire Departments are not run by the national gov
194 Quokka : Whatever the differences in approach adopted in Australia and the US, it is good to note that it does not prevent co-operation between our two countri
195 dxing : And it is, to the people who live in town and pay for the service through their property taxes. These folks lived outside of the town in an unincorpo
196 prebennorholm : No, they don't. They collect the money in different ways as appropriate. Plus various extra fees. It's not logical that my kids shall die only becaus
197 iairallie : If parents neglect their children here they can be taken away and many communities do choose to have assistance available to assist those who are in
198 dxing : In what different ways? If they don't have the money how are you going to get it out of them? No law against idiots having children...even 8 at a tim
199 Post contains images FRAspotter : This is ridiculous... in this country with medical emergencies doctors are required to give treatment even if the person can't pay. The same should ha
200 dxing : No medical emergency here so no comparison. They can sue if they wish but they will lose. They don't live within the city boundaries so the city is u
201 fr8mech : Not sure about where you live, but after the proper procedures have been followed, the utilities are shut-off. Typically, it's elderly folks. Let's b
202 FRAspotter : My grandma lives in an unincorporated area as well and are required to pay something like $50 for fire service. One of her neighbors houses was on fi
203 dxing : As I noted in reply 195. It's not the fire fighters job to decide policy, it is the city council and the mayors. They decided if you didn't pay, the
204 Post contains images TheCommodore : Well you should come over and see how it works here in Australia ( don't forget the passport !!) While I agree that most times, Governments should bu
205 Post contains links dxing : Negative. Incorporated areas would be the city. Where these people lived is out in the country, an unincorporated area. They don't vote for a mayor o
206 TheCommodore : Sorry, that's what I meant Not until after a neighbors field caught on fire that they responded. Way to late IMO, they should have been dispatched im
207 N1120A : This creates even more of an issue because the fire should have never spread to the other person's house. I think the fire department/City of South Fu
208 iairallie : Completely different. A life cannot be replaced property can be. Precisely Been there done that why do you think I decided to get my US citizenship 5
209 Aaron747 : I understand where you're coming from but even where we're from in California these things happen - I'm aware of some islands in Contra Costa County
210 Post contains links Quokka : It is always instructive to learn about experiences in other parts of the world. This debate has prompted me to dig a bit deeper to gain more underst
211 N1120A : And that bothers me too. I abhor these fee based services, but if they are going to do them, why not take the approach some cities that have a 911 fe
212 Post contains images TheCommodore : In your most humble opinion.... that is. Goodie for you. Now go renounce you Australian Passport, because it doesn't sound like you will be needing i
213 fr8mech : What happens? We adapt. The department I served on was full volunteer (except for a caretaker for the firehouse who was a firefighter) until 1982. Wh
214 Quokka : I am sorry mate, I have to disagree with you on this one as these services are not funded out of federal income tax. Fire and Emergency Services are
215 Post contains links dxing : They did arrive before the neighbors field caught fire, and when it id they put it out. http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news...fire-department-watche
216 MD11Engineer : Oh, here in Germany they do. A few months ago my doorbell rang and outside was a bailiff (court enforcer) together with a representative of the local
217 Post contains links dxing : Absolutely, or agree to have their property taxes raised by the proposed .13 a year it would take to get an agreement in place with the cities that d
218 Post contains images Quokka : Thanks for using your own Station as an example of the dynamics of how things change.
219 fr8mech : No problem. But, please note, that as volunteer service went down, in order to maintain the level of service the community had become accustomed to (
220 MD11Engineer : The lesser willingness of young people to volunteer for community service like firefighting or ambulance services affects us as well. Fortunately the
221 Post contains links and images TheCommodore : Meant to say "state" government. I am well aware that its up to the state to divy the loot up between the different agencies once they been give the
222 MD11Engineer : Here the boss will have to pay the full salary, but will get it back from the government, so that he won´t have a financial disadvantage. But he wil
223 canoecarrier : Why? In the San Juan Islands here in Washington there are many islands people live on that have no fire service at all. The people that live there ma
224 BMI727 : The younger people take over. When I graduated high school a number of my friends had joined the volunteer fire department and ambulance service.
225 TheCommodore : Young people are moving away from rural areas in droves, because they think there is no future for then in the country. Sad i know but that 'sthe way
226 Post contains images canoecarrier : The internet is forever my Aussie friend. Don't put out some comment you're not willing to take responsibility for Not unlike my argument about perso
227 Post contains links Quokka : Quoting Commodore: "In NSW there are no levy's fees or taxes. All covered by state allocations." Sorry Commodore, you just have it wrong on the issue
228 fr8mech : Hmmm, that's interesting. The insurance companies provide funding for the fire service? Here, the better your fire service (as graded by The Insuranc
229 Quokka : Yes, in NSW. It used to be the same in Western Australia (WA) but as not everyone had insurance yet were still benefiting from the service, the law w
230 canoecarrier : Was everyone required to have insurance? Just clarifying, they way you put it everyone was required to have it.
231 Quokka : No, that was part of the problem. Still today some people choose not to insure their houses and you see them on TV when they have lost everything fol
232 BMI727 : Not all of them. Many do, but many stay around as well. Like I said, the younger people. Or if everyone leaves, there is no longer any need for a fir
233 iairallie : Then the community must look at other options and adapt they can move, negotiate to recieve service from a neighboring community, create incentives f
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