IAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 500 posts, RR: 49 Posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17155 times:
Just breaking here in Zhuhai right now, an official announcement is expected at 10:30 AM. It's a little after 9 here at the moment on Tuesday morning.
China Southern, China Eastern, Air China, Hainan Airlines, CLC and GECAS are lined up for the launch. No word yet on how many, reports estimate the total to be in the "hundreds".
Aloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4329 posts, RR: 18 Reply 1, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17084 times:
I'm wondering if this is going to end up being the dark horse in the A320NEO/737NG+/CS300 race. But then I wonder, will US airlines treat Chinese airliners the way they do Russian airliners? Russia has a new jet that I'm also hoping catches on, but historical precedent strongly favors A/B. Will it be different this time if neither Airbus or Boeing act quickly enough?
cosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 571 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17079 times:
China will make sure their strategic product gets off to a successful start. It domestic market is also large enough to provide a long runway to enable the industry to take off. Its government is so committed that it will do whatever it takes to make China into a major aviation player.
flybyguy From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 1765 posts, RR: 2 Reply 3, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 16904 times:
I wonder if some of the technical know-how garnered under the McDonnell-Douglas trunkliner program, along with any newer techniques gained on the assembly of A320s on the mainland will help push the C919 forward faster? I also feel that airbus and Boeing may be banking way too much on technical cooperation in exchange for orders. Given enough time, China will be satisfying its own demand for domestic jets... without the need for future Boeing or Airbus aircraft. Considering the political nature of these first few COMAC orders, this may happen sooner rather than later by Beijing decree... or perhaps less ominously, billion dollar grants for buying domestically produced aerospace products.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
Bloomberg are reporting 100 though the statement they reference didn’t say how many aircraft each customer ordered.
Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China announced its first 100 C919 passenger-plane orders, breaking Airbus SAS and Boeing Co.’s stranglehold on the world’s second- largest market for new aircraft.
General Electric Co.’s leasing arm and China’s big three domestic airlines were among the customers for the 168-seat plane, state-controlled Comac said in a statement issued at the Zhuhai air show in southern China today. It didn’t say how many aircraft each customer ordered.
Aloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4329 posts, RR: 18 Reply 5, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 16591 times:
What was the EIS on this plane again?
Not to be devil's advocate or anything, but we've seen quite a bit in the media lately about "poor quality, safety compromising" products from china. The latest being lead-lined grocery sacks and toys with lead paint.
An aircraft is an entirely different story, but with Chinese products having a negative connotation to them as of late, and potentially some political pressure that may or may not occur, are you sure the Chinese can pull this off in the western world? I worry that folks will associate chinese airliners with chinese grocery sacks. It's a stretch, but never underestimate politics and media.
Furthermore, given the two year delay in the entry-into-service of the ARJ-21, we believe the 2016 EIS for the C919 will likely slip to 2018, even with its currently planned eight-year launch-to-EIS timeline; we just don’t think the Chinese will make it.
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 4314 posts, RR: 25 Reply 9, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16387 times:
It was inevitable that the Chinese would be making their own airliners. It seems to be one of the steps a country takes in strengthening its place in the developed world. Heck, the Chinese have a viable space program...I don't see any reason they can't produce an airliner or two.
China has had access to western and Russian technology for decades. Just like Russia, the Chinese market will still have room for foreign airlines for the foreseeable future. They will just not be able to fill their own needs, and eventually they will also want to export them, which will further reduce the domestic supply.
There is at least 5 more years before either of their airliners enters service and many more years before they can produce them in significant numbers.
The Chinese market alone will be big enough so everybody can get a taste.
tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 289 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 16327 times:
Color me dubious... if the Chinese make airplanes as well as they make cars, I'm never getting on one.
PanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 96 Reply 12, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 15979 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 11): Flight Global confirms its an order of 100 jets with half of them being firm.
Thanks for the update CamiloA380. The article also provides the first breakdown of some of the orders;
Air China, China Southern and China Eastern have ordered up to 20 C919s each, he adds. He did not give a detailed breakdown for the remaining orders.
GECAS says it has ordered up to 10 aircraft, half of which are firm orders
That could be 10+10 for Air China, China Eastern and China Southern plus 5+5 for GECAS, if that is the case then there are 15 firm left between Hainan and CLC. That is just my opinion and we should know more with the signings tomorrow.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 15850 times:
Can't help but notice how the cockpit windows bear more than a passing resemblance to those of the 787.
But, as the saying goes "imitation is the best form of flattery".
In this case, the "similar job breeds similar design" rhetoric doesn't cut it.
The Airbus aircraft do the same job as Boeing aircraft, yet the cockpit windows are completely different.
Since the 787 project got underway for certain, I've always said, the 737 replacement will look like a smaller 787. I even drew this:
Not to be devil's advocate or anything, but we've seen quite a bit in the media lately about "poor quality, safety compromising" products from china. The latest being lead-lined grocery sacks and toys with lead paint.
An aircraft is an entirely different story, but with Chinese products having a negative connotation to them as of late, and potentially some political pressure that may or may not occur, are you sure the Chinese can pull this off in the western world? I worry that folks will associate chinese airliners with chinese grocery sacks. It's a stretch, but never underestimate politics and media.
All western planes have Chinese parts on them anyway, and 20 years ago if someone had said that the dominant player in the 90-100 seat market would be Brazilian you'd have been laughed at, indeed even now people associate Brazil with football, samba, beaches and skimpy bikinis rather than a successful aerospace industry, and it hasn't stopped airlines buying their products!
I can't imagine any exports of the C919 for several years after entry date, except to a few friendly countries in the 3rd world, so China has plenty of time to build up its service levels to A and B levels.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
kingfriday013 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1218 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15395 times:
Quoting tennis69 (Reply 8): Here are some photos of the full scale model:
Chiad From Norway, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 793 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15191 times:
I really hope that we'll see the C919 flying all around the planet in 2020, and perhaps as an updated version in 2025.
This segment is way too big to support only 2 manufacturers.
parapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1208 posts, RR: 10 Reply 17, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14688 times:
I noticed that they released a few hard facts on the size of the aircraft (width/length/pax etc) does anyone know what Boeing or Airbus model does it most closely resemble . I am thinking it's the A320 would that be correct?
AirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 14401 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 7): Well CAAC's AR-21 failed the wing bending test, so they're working to strengthen that.
Hopefully the models used for the C919 are more accurate...
Funny enough, I seem to remember another aircraft failing the same thing!
Quoting garpd (Reply 13): Can't help but notice how the cockpit windows bear more than a passing resemblance to those of the 787.
But, as the saying goes "imitation is the best form of flattery".
In this case, the "similar job breeds similar design" rhetoric doesn't cut it.
The Airbus aircraft do the same job as Boeing aircraft, yet the cockpit windows are completely different.
Sure, but how different can you infinitely make cockpit windows? I mean, are you seriously basing the quality of an aircraft on such intanglible matters or what difference does it really make?
wedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5220 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13952 times:
How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.
It probably will be a metal cockpit anyway, reducing opportunities to "copy" anything.
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 19): How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.
All. The centralized undemocratic Chinese economy is taking large bites out of established businesses everywhere. And the amounts of money they have in the bank is scary (and they don't print it themselves..) We used to explain them how capitalism, free market and democracy are connected. All they give us is a friendly smile.
FoxThree From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12793 times:
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1): I'm wondering if this is going to end up being the dark horse in the A320NEO/737NG+/CS300 race.
I read somewhere that most analysts believe the performance will lag even the current generation A320/737NG, not to mention any re-engined versions. This, and the ARJ 21, are seen more as opportunities to allow Chinese industry to gain experience designing and manufacturing commercial airliners vs. viable competitors to Airbus and Boeing. However, I don't think the Chinese airlines have much say about whether to buy them, and if the purchase price is low enough there may be some sales to third-world carriers, too.
The next generation of Chinese airliners, however, may well be much better direct competitors to Airbus and Boeing. I think anything that breaks-up the A/B duopoly, be it Chinese, Japanese, Canadian, or whatever is a good thing for the industry as a whole.
Quoting garpd (Reply 13): Since the 787 project got underway for certain, I've always said, the 737 replacement will look like a smaller 787. I even drew this:
That's a mighty nice looking airliner ya' got there!
tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 289 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 12275 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 20): What do you think is increasingly occupying space under the skin of your western branded car ?
My car is a Hyundai, made in South Korea... I seriously doubt it has much (if any) Chinese content. There may in fact be some minor components of western cars that were manufactured in China, but they do not comprise any of the structure or major systems such as body, engine, or transmission. In addition, all of the purely Chinese cars I have seen safety-tested have performed well below standards in comparison to Japanese, European, Korean, and American cars. Some of the crash-test videos have been truly frightening.
However, you are probably right that I should amend my statement to be less absolute... How about this: I won't get on a Chinese plane until the Chinese planes have proved themselves reliable after many years of service.
AirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 1713 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11201 times:
Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 19): How many of these orders were forced upon by the Chinese government??? Can anyone prove to me with absolute certainty that many of the C919 orders were NOT politically-driven??? It will be interesting to see what further orders this airplane gets in the future.
Of course the same can be said about all the purchases of British aircraft by BEA/BOAC, and French aircraft by AF/AI, the early purchases of Airbuses by AF, IB and LH, MRJ being bought by NH and JL, the sales of RR powered 747s to QF and NZ etc
And the cancellation of the USAF A330 tankers
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 4 Reply 25, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 11220 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 20):
New load carrying window technology enabled the number of windows to be reduced to 4 and it didn't start with the Dreamliner.
HRC773 From Puerto Rico, joined Jan 2009, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 10751 times:
I don't think the issue is whether or not China will create a high quality safe plane. I think they can. The issue is who will believe it. China has mastered the art of creating low cost products that in many cases might be of lesser quality. That is also a popular image of China's consumer products. We all buy those products because they offer good value for the price. However, are we willing to trust our lives on them? I'm not too sure.
SolarFlyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 312 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (1 year 6 months 2 days ago) and read 9355 times:
People have to realize that in a nation of 1.2 billion, you're focus is on quantity not quality. There are just a lot of mouths to feed with limited resources. Additionally, in most communist economies of the past, emphasis was on production quotas, not on efficiency or quality. They are still transitioning away from that and its still extremely rare in my opinion to find a high quality chinese product. I personally do not want to fly on a Chinese made plane and would avoid it if possible. If they fly this current generation for 20 years accident free, I'll reconsider.
manfredj From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7419 times:
Quoting HRC773 (Reply 26): However, are we willing to trust our lives on them? I'm not too sure.
Yes sir, you're quite correct. Perception is everything. This aircraft may be new, but our perception of Chinese craftmanship is not.
Don't expect many American or European orders to follow. It's too bad really, because this will probably be a great aircraft. The questions is, why trust your fleet with a brand new airplane whose abilities have yet to be proven? The 737/320 as old as they are, are proven workhorses. Airlines know what to expect and can be sure they will deliver.
The 919 will need a few years, perhaps as many as ten, to prove itself as a reliable cheaper alternative to the 737/320 before anyone outside Asia decides to place large orders.
iceberg210 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 127 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7377 times:
So here's my question. Beyond quality and all the other issues that people have brought up, this is a state owned company. So wouldn't if you were Boeing and Airbus cause a fit over the fact that basically if this isn't illegal subsidies I'm not sure what is?
Are they just too afraid of losing the Chinese market?
Honestly I think it might be a good idea for SOMEONE to call the Chinese out on this, and say, if you want to build an industry, and can do it on it's own feet fine, but if you're going to go the subsidy route and just keep pouring money that never has to be paid back we're not interested in your products being sold on the free market.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 5873 posts, RR: 74 Reply 33, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7107 times:
Quoting tsugambler (Reply 10): if the Chinese make airplanes as well as they make cars, I'm never getting on one.
Then stop getting on a 737NG... it has Chinese parts and Chinese assembled components (some of which are criticial)...
Then stop getting on an LCC A320... many of which get their cheap purchase price by using "Made in China" components...
Quoting tsugambler (Reply 23): I seriously doubt it has much (if any) Chinese content.
Be surprised!!!!!!!!
If in 20 years... Chinese made planes end up with less Chinese parts than non-Chinese planes... I may stop flying!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
tsugambler From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 289 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7067 times:
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33): Then stop getting on a 737NG... it has Chinese parts and Chinese assembled components (some of which are criticial)...
Then stop getting on an LCC A320... many of which get their cheap purchase price by using "Made in China" components...
They may have some components made in China (especially computer components), but the vast majority of the systems are not. More importantly, the design itself is not of Chinese origin. I'm not saying that the Chinese will never be able to compete in the civil aircraft market, but I am saying that I believe they have a long way to go before their products will be truly comparable. I mentioned Chinese cars as an example of a complex Chinese-designed system that does not yet function as well as its Western (or Eastern) counterparts.
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 33): I seriously doubt it has much (if any) Chinese content.
Be surprised!!!!!!!!
If I recall correctly, South Korea and China are not the best of pals, and I don't think that my 2002 Hyundai is going to have any more Chinese content than perhaps a few computer chips. Of course, if presented with evidence to the contrary, I will gladly eat my words.
kanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1806 posts, RR: 16 Reply 35, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6936 times:
Quoting tsugambler (Reply 34): They may have some components made in China (especially computer components), but the vast majority of the systems are not.
the Chinese build or built (things may have changed in the last 10 years) the 737 vertical fin which was a better product both in quality, consistency and appearance, than the domestically built units...
astral From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 205 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6838 times:
COMAC is showing the C919 cockpit and cabin to selected medias at Air Show China. These are photos taken yesterday during pre-opening media tour.
Interesting with large HUD (which is an option according to COMAC), electronic flight bag display, and side stick control similar to Airbus. The cabin is slightly wider and taller than the A320, and is 2x2 in business, 3x3 in economy.
The C919 would have only 30% Chinese components, while the rest ~ all majors such as landing gears, avionics, engines (LEAP-X) are supplied by western industries.
Please see my much earlier posts on the performance and target markets by COMAC for the C919.
Gipsy From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6575 times:
Quoting astral (Reply 36): The C919 would have only 30% Chinese components, while the rest ~ all majors such as landing gears, avionics, engines (LEAP-X) are supplied by western industries
Yep so smart (Managers hmm). And of those western supplied components all are 50/50 Joint Ventures with uhm let me guess...production in China and technology transfer. Even CFM is thinking about a production and test facility in China for the new LeapX. We are selling our crown jewels for a few bucks to a nation with a great common goal and the unrestricted possibilities to achieve it and which is not beeing hampered by to much share holder value and market share shortsightened stuff. They have trapped us in our own illogic and unsustainable way of economic behaviour. Well I'm beginning to learn chinese right now. Maybe some day high ranking western CEOs will clean the toilets of the then chinese CEOs..under my supervision. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...329/china-special-c919-update.html
shankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1416 posts, RR: 1 Reply 38, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6430 times:
Quoting Gipsy (Reply 37): Even CFM is thinking about a production and test facility in China for the new LeapX. We are selling our crown jewels for a few bucks to a nation with a great common goal and the unrestricted possibilities to achieve it and which is not being hampered by too much share holder value and market share short sighted stuff.
Rather reminiscent of the British sharing its crown jewels (jet engines and supersonic airframe technology) with the US post WW2 and letting the nice boys and Boeing have a peek at the Trident. Before the hillbillies descend, no offence meant to our US cousins...indeed I salute their ingenuity and maintain that Lockheed during the period 1955-1970 was by far the greatest aircraft manufacturer the world has ever seen, or ever likely to see.
The point I am making, is that what we are seeing in China is not new. It has been done before in the US and on a smaller scale in Brazil. To be frank the early Boeing jet product was a bit ropey and plagued by control problems as serious as the fatigue issues which affected the Comet. We all however look back on the 50's and 60's as the fantastic "jet age". Fantastic apart from the pretty grim accident records of the early jets. In 50 years time our grandchildren will think it no more different that they are stepping on a Chinese airliner than we do stepping on a boeing, airbus, embraer or bombardier product today
Finally, anyone who thinks the Chinese can't build anything which will last should go check out the Great Wall and the Forbidden City
JoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 4314 posts, RR: 25 Reply 39, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6383 times:
Quoting shankly (Reply 38): Finally, anyone who thinks the Chinese can't build anything which will last should go check out the Great Wall and the Forbidden City
If the Chinese use that technology, the C919 might come in a bit heavy.
keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 40, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6352 times:
Quoting HRC773 (Reply 26): China has mastered the art of creating low cost products that in many cases might be of lesser quality.
Quoting tsugambler (Reply 23): My car is a Hyundai, made in South Korea... I seriously doubt it has much (if any) Chinese content. There may in fact be some minor components of western cars that were manufactured in China, but they do not comprise any of the structure or major systems such as body, engine, or transmission.
Quoting manfredj (Reply 31): Don't expect many American or European orders to follow.
I think you are underestimating the industrial power of the Chinese. They are attracting major production contracts from almost all major western brands in all industries. It's nit "if" it has been happening for many years. Check out where the most advanced products you own are produced..
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6152 posts, RR: 8 Reply 41, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6202 times:
I find it so ironic that so many people question the quality of Chinese airplanes (and products in general), when it's their own countries' quality oversight rules and organizations that allow those "bad quality" products into the market. If you don't want bad products, it's very simple, don't allow them to be sold in the first place.
It's not where the airplane is made that I care, as much as how it is maintained. And with so many airlines cutting corners to save money, or outsourcing their maintenace, or simply unqualified to permorm their own maintenace, that's what I look at. As an example, I'd have no problem flying a LH C919 but I won't be caught dead on a TAAG 737.
garpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2095 posts, RR: 4 Reply 42, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6165 times:
Quoting airbazar (Reply 41): As an example, I'd have no problem flying a LH C919
Now there is an interesting prospect.
We all know how LH consistently order different engines and aircraft, so that Lufthansa Technik can gain experience and thus be able to take on contract work. (Within reason of course).
Could an LH C919 order be possible, just for that reason?
gipsy From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (1 year 6 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6117 times:
Quality is not the issue here in IMHO, if they want they can and do produce quality goods for a higher price naturally. The problem is that the West still doesn't understand the chinese business mentality of today. For a little gain they offer everything in terms of technology transfers. I have no problem with the chinese competing with us. But they reglement/tariff their market and call for JV everywhere with full technology transfers. At the same time they pour in billions of state aid and use their own market as a starting platform. Also no problem here but why don't we act the same? Because every company feels they have to do so because if they don't another one will do it. So we can't protect our markets (due to lobbyists fearing being expelled from chinese contracts) and resort more and more in making our money with banks and the like unreal value makers. The effects of that type of "industry" can be felt right now in Ireland. Well, put some 100 billion in a real industry and look what comes out of it, not only in tax revenues but also other positive economic developments. It's worth a try. But if some producing company needs 1 billion the banks hesitate as it's to risky blabla and prefer to sink their and others money in some creative financial products (just to be bailed out again and again).
I'm really interested in the future when China is leading. Will they share their high tech with us too?
I'm not an opponent of all those tactics. It's their decision. But at least someone has to calculate the short term gains against the long term losses. And the stupidity of donating technology is beyond my perception. If you want to compete, ok, develop it on your own or at least reverse engineer it. The chinese must be laughing at our naivety we even teach it them for (nearly) free!
aviationweek From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2010, 55 posts, RR: 0 Reply 44, posted (1 year 6 months 5 hours ago) and read 5660 times:
Slightly off-topic, but it was interesting to see Comac's handling of this press announcement. Aviation Week's Bradley Perrett doesn't mince his words when he says "Comac invited only obedient media to the ceremony". (Read the full blog here http://bit.ly/9AMgPn )
So I ask, does it matter if Comac continues to remain close to its Chinese routes or does it need to learn to better market itself?
pylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1389 posts, RR: 2 Reply 45, posted (1 year 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 5561 times:
Quoting keesje (Reply 20): We used to explain them how capitalism, free market and democracy are connected. All they give us is a friendly smile
What can you expect? Chinese civilization is the oldest of all existing (along with Iran/Persia).
When Zhou Enlai was asked about impact of the French revolution, he responded: "It's too soon to say".
I guess Chinese have their own time scale.
So, keesje, we all had been barbarians for them 2,000 years ago. Actually, we didn't come to existence by then.
And this attitude didn't change much.
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